1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,510 [Music] 2 00:00:08,710 --> 00:00:06,789 there's a whole fleet of them look on 3 00:00:10,950 --> 00:00:08,720 the assay 4 00:00:14,310 --> 00:00:10,960 oh my gosh they're all going against the 5 00:00:18,950 --> 00:00:16,390 it was basically a cube with inside of 6 00:00:23,940 --> 00:00:18,960 sphere where the points of the cube 7 00:00:37,110 --> 00:00:33,200 [Music] 8 00:00:38,709 --> 00:00:37,120 [Applause] 9 00:00:40,950 --> 00:00:38,719 so this isn't anything that just is 10 00:00:50,150 --> 00:00:40,960 limited to the united states it's a 11 00:00:55,270 --> 00:00:52,790 hi everyone and welcome back to that ufo 12 00:00:58,150 --> 00:00:55,280 podcast making his second appearance on 13 00:01:00,630 --> 00:00:58,160 the pod i have award-winning journalist 14 00:01:02,389 --> 00:01:00,640 author of the believer alien encounters 15 00:01:04,310 --> 00:01:02,399 hard science and the passion of john 16 00:01:06,310 --> 00:01:04,320 mack i'd like to welcome back ralph 17 00:01:08,630 --> 00:01:06,320 blumenthal ralph how are we 18 00:01:10,469 --> 00:01:08,640 oh great thank you for having me 19 00:01:12,390 --> 00:01:10,479 it's always a pleasure anytime ralph and 20 00:01:14,310 --> 00:01:12,400 i do mean that with yourself listen 21 00:01:16,469 --> 00:01:14,320 ralph you were on the pod a few months 22 00:01:19,270 --> 00:01:16,479 ago talking about your fantastic book on 23 00:01:21,910 --> 00:01:19,280 john mack who so ferociously studied the 24 00:01:23,830 --> 00:01:21,920 alien abduction experience now just a 25 00:01:25,749 --> 00:01:23,840 few days ago as we recalled this you 26 00:01:28,789 --> 00:01:25,759 authored an article for the debrief 27 00:01:30,630 --> 00:01:28,799 titled the experience the cultural rise 28 00:01:32,069 --> 00:01:30,640 of alien abductions and those who 29 00:01:34,230 --> 00:01:32,079 experience them 30 00:01:36,390 --> 00:01:34,240 what about this particular aspect of the 31 00:01:38,950 --> 00:01:36,400 phenomenon do you find so compelling 32 00:01:41,749 --> 00:01:38,960 that you're still pursuing it 33 00:01:43,190 --> 00:01:41,759 well first of all um i in this article i 34 00:01:47,749 --> 00:01:43,200 try to relate 35 00:01:49,190 --> 00:01:47,759 uh the revelations uh about uh ufos that 36 00:01:52,469 --> 00:01:49,200 are very recent 37 00:01:54,950 --> 00:01:52,479 uh to the the broader question of uh 38 00:01:57,350 --> 00:01:54,960 alien experiences so 39 00:02:00,789 --> 00:01:57,360 in the new york times uh the articles we 40 00:02:02,950 --> 00:02:00,799 did we dealt with the ufo sightings and 41 00:02:08,710 --> 00:02:02,960 the 42 00:02:09,669 --> 00:02:08,720 air force have done 43 00:02:17,510 --> 00:02:09,679 in 44 00:02:18,869 --> 00:02:17,520 uap unidentified area aerial phenomena 45 00:02:20,869 --> 00:02:18,879 whatever they are 46 00:02:23,030 --> 00:02:20,879 and um 47 00:02:24,550 --> 00:02:23,040 so i start off by saying 48 00:02:26,949 --> 00:02:24,560 um 49 00:02:29,030 --> 00:02:26,959 the news with ufos is that the 50 00:02:31,589 --> 00:02:29,040 government is now saying that these 51 00:02:34,150 --> 00:02:31,599 things exist okay there's physical 52 00:02:35,270 --> 00:02:34,160 confirmation in measurements and 53 00:02:38,390 --> 00:02:35,280 video 54 00:02:40,229 --> 00:02:38,400 radar etc that something physical exists 55 00:02:41,270 --> 00:02:40,239 and that's quite a breakthrough from the 56 00:02:44,070 --> 00:02:41,280 previous 57 00:02:46,710 --> 00:02:44,080 uh stances that the government has taken 58 00:02:48,670 --> 00:02:46,720 um claiming that this is marsh gas or 59 00:02:50,790 --> 00:02:48,680 the planet venus or 60 00:02:52,229 --> 00:02:50,800 hallucinations or fly specs on the 61 00:02:53,110 --> 00:02:52,239 windshield 62 00:02:54,550 --> 00:02:53,120 um 63 00:02:56,790 --> 00:02:54,560 so now the government has come around 64 00:02:58,470 --> 00:02:56,800 not only do they physically exist but 65 00:03:00,550 --> 00:02:58,480 they represent a threat 66 00:03:03,509 --> 00:03:00,560 to other aircraft 67 00:03:05,190 --> 00:03:03,519 so uh in terms of you know near misses 68 00:03:07,110 --> 00:03:05,200 so so that's really interesting these 69 00:03:08,710 --> 00:03:07,120 things exist now 70 00:03:10,630 --> 00:03:08,720 and then i make the distinction in the 71 00:03:11,670 --> 00:03:10,640 article that the government is not 72 00:03:12,470 --> 00:03:11,680 saying 73 00:03:14,229 --> 00:03:12,480 uh 74 00:03:16,309 --> 00:03:14,239 where these things come from what they 75 00:03:18,630 --> 00:03:16,319 think they are who's behind or what is 76 00:03:19,670 --> 00:03:18,640 behind the wheel if there is a wheel 77 00:03:21,270 --> 00:03:19,680 um 78 00:03:23,350 --> 00:03:21,280 because first of all the government 79 00:03:25,270 --> 00:03:23,360 doesn't know it's pure speculation and 80 00:03:28,070 --> 00:03:25,280 and we and in the times too we like to 81 00:03:30,550 --> 00:03:28,080 stick to what we can what we can back up 82 00:03:34,070 --> 00:03:30,560 so this article was an attempt to kind 83 00:03:35,270 --> 00:03:34,080 of relate these two sides of the 84 00:03:38,789 --> 00:03:35,280 of the issue 85 00:03:41,430 --> 00:03:38,799 um uh bridge them in a way of course 86 00:03:42,789 --> 00:03:41,440 that it's not necessarily bridgeable but 87 00:03:45,030 --> 00:03:42,799 um 88 00:03:46,789 --> 00:03:45,040 john mack 89 00:03:49,509 --> 00:03:46,799 the harvard psychiatrist i wrote about 90 00:03:50,630 --> 00:03:49,519 in the believer found a correlation 91 00:03:51,670 --> 00:03:50,640 between 92 00:03:54,630 --> 00:03:51,680 um 93 00:03:56,869 --> 00:03:54,640 experiencer accounts of 94 00:03:59,509 --> 00:03:56,879 you know meeting with or being abducted 95 00:04:02,229 --> 00:03:59,519 by alien beings 96 00:04:05,270 --> 00:04:02,239 and ufos he said very often a ufo was 97 00:04:06,710 --> 00:04:05,280 cited in proximity to where these 98 00:04:09,429 --> 00:04:06,720 encounters 99 00:04:11,030 --> 00:04:09,439 happened at night or in driving in a car 100 00:04:13,670 --> 00:04:11,040 or wherever 101 00:04:17,349 --> 00:04:13,680 so there is some kind of a correlation 102 00:04:20,949 --> 00:04:17,359 but not all the experiencer accounts 103 00:04:23,270 --> 00:04:20,959 mention ufos uh sometimes they're very 104 00:04:25,270 --> 00:04:23,280 strange these accounts they are you 105 00:04:27,990 --> 00:04:25,280 cannot make them up 106 00:04:29,590 --> 00:04:28,000 it seems to me the details are so 107 00:04:31,270 --> 00:04:29,600 incredible 108 00:04:33,350 --> 00:04:31,280 that uh 109 00:04:35,270 --> 00:04:33,360 humans do not have the imagination it 110 00:04:38,150 --> 00:04:35,280 seems to me to make up these these 111 00:04:40,070 --> 00:04:38,160 stories the detail of these stories 112 00:04:42,629 --> 00:04:40,080 so 113 00:04:46,390 --> 00:04:42,639 what the relationship is between ufos 114 00:04:48,070 --> 00:04:46,400 and and alien experiences um is very 115 00:04:50,710 --> 00:04:48,080 difficult to 116 00:04:52,790 --> 00:04:50,720 to establish um as i said there's some 117 00:04:55,189 --> 00:04:52,800 kind of a correlation but not all 118 00:04:56,469 --> 00:04:55,199 experiences involve ufos 119 00:04:59,749 --> 00:04:56,479 and um 120 00:05:01,270 --> 00:04:59,759 and the uh and the scientific backing 121 00:05:02,469 --> 00:05:01,280 that the government has 122 00:05:03,909 --> 00:05:02,479 has gotten 123 00:05:08,629 --> 00:05:03,919 in order to be able to say that these 124 00:05:10,790 --> 00:05:08,639 things exist say nothing about uh aliens 125 00:05:12,790 --> 00:05:10,800 now the article itself was originally 126 00:05:14,550 --> 00:05:12,800 scheduled to be printed by the new york 127 00:05:17,510 --> 00:05:14,560 times but at the last minute it was 128 00:05:19,430 --> 00:05:17,520 decided against why was this and did you 129 00:05:20,870 --> 00:05:19,440 expect that given the nature of what was 130 00:05:23,590 --> 00:05:20,880 being discussed 131 00:05:27,590 --> 00:05:23,600 well it was a little complicated um 132 00:05:29,350 --> 00:05:27,600 the times in in very good faith uh uh 133 00:05:31,590 --> 00:05:29,360 asked me to look into this for an 134 00:05:33,350 --> 00:05:31,600 article uh which i did 135 00:05:35,830 --> 00:05:33,360 but you know along the way as often 136 00:05:39,510 --> 00:05:35,840 happens people move 137 00:05:41,909 --> 00:05:39,520 and my editor of the piece left and two 138 00:05:43,909 --> 00:05:41,919 photo editors left and by the time 139 00:05:45,909 --> 00:05:43,919 everybody moved um the piece was 140 00:05:47,029 --> 00:05:45,919 essentially you know handed off to 141 00:05:48,790 --> 00:05:47,039 people who didn't have the same 142 00:05:53,510 --> 00:05:48,800 commitment to it so that happens in 143 00:05:54,790 --> 00:05:53,520 journalism i understand that um and um 144 00:05:55,670 --> 00:05:54,800 you know they were very good about it 145 00:05:57,749 --> 00:05:55,680 they 146 00:05:59,909 --> 00:05:57,759 i certainly was free to to place it 147 00:06:01,110 --> 00:05:59,919 elsewhere which i did very happily at 148 00:06:03,749 --> 00:06:01,120 the debrief 149 00:06:05,990 --> 00:06:03,759 and um you know not every article works 150 00:06:09,510 --> 00:06:06,000 out i've written in my long career at 151 00:06:11,110 --> 00:06:09,520 the times 45 years uh many articles ran 152 00:06:12,710 --> 00:06:11,120 some didn't for different reasons 153 00:06:13,909 --> 00:06:12,720 different editors have different takes 154 00:06:16,390 --> 00:06:13,919 on things 155 00:06:17,430 --> 00:06:16,400 it's a difficult you know area 156 00:06:19,909 --> 00:06:17,440 um 157 00:06:23,590 --> 00:06:19,919 i understand that so i there's no hard 158 00:06:27,830 --> 00:06:25,270 ralph i'm going to ask is there an 159 00:06:30,070 --> 00:06:27,840 argument that the public is not anywhere 160 00:06:31,830 --> 00:06:30,080 near ready for this aspect of the 161 00:06:35,510 --> 00:06:31,840 phenomenon to be brought into the 162 00:06:37,749 --> 00:06:35,520 conversation in the mainstream 163 00:06:39,909 --> 00:06:37,759 well i don't agree with that um i think 164 00:06:41,749 --> 00:06:39,919 the the the public is ahead of the 165 00:06:44,070 --> 00:06:41,759 government in many ways 166 00:06:45,990 --> 00:06:44,080 i think the government was historically 167 00:06:48,230 --> 00:06:46,000 afraid 168 00:06:50,469 --> 00:06:48,240 of dealing with the subject which is why 169 00:06:52,150 --> 00:06:50,479 you know going back to roswell and 170 00:06:53,589 --> 00:06:52,160 kenneth arnold's 171 00:06:55,990 --> 00:06:53,599 sighting 172 00:07:00,870 --> 00:06:56,000 of ufos over mount rainier 173 00:07:02,390 --> 00:07:00,880 1947 was a banner a banner year for ufos 174 00:07:05,270 --> 00:07:02,400 and then of course all the sightings 175 00:07:09,029 --> 00:07:05,280 over washington dc and you know the the 176 00:07:10,870 --> 00:07:09,039 whole flurry of uh of ufo activity uh 177 00:07:12,790 --> 00:07:10,880 the government seemed to take the 178 00:07:16,150 --> 00:07:12,800 position that people this is too 179 00:07:17,430 --> 00:07:16,160 upsetting uh to people to to acknowledge 180 00:07:18,950 --> 00:07:17,440 so they came up with all kinds of 181 00:07:21,430 --> 00:07:18,960 stories that this was you know these 182 00:07:22,309 --> 00:07:21,440 were hallucinations that these were 183 00:07:25,430 --> 00:07:22,319 um 184 00:07:28,150 --> 00:07:25,440 uh you know the planet venus as i said 185 00:07:31,350 --> 00:07:28,160 which is ridiculous because you had um 186 00:07:33,589 --> 00:07:31,360 veterans of world war ii who had close 187 00:07:35,830 --> 00:07:33,599 uh encounters with some of these objects 188 00:07:37,909 --> 00:07:35,840 pilots particularly and they know what 189 00:07:40,710 --> 00:07:37,919 the planet venus looks like 190 00:07:41,670 --> 00:07:40,720 and they know what a ufo looks like 191 00:07:43,990 --> 00:07:41,680 so 192 00:07:46,230 --> 00:07:44,000 the public was ahead of the government 193 00:07:48,150 --> 00:07:46,240 in many ways and the government not only 194 00:07:49,830 --> 00:07:48,160 didn't acknowledge it but in some cases 195 00:07:51,270 --> 00:07:49,840 it went to great lengths to come up with 196 00:07:52,629 --> 00:07:51,280 disinformation 197 00:07:53,589 --> 00:07:52,639 um 198 00:07:55,830 --> 00:07:53,599 you know 199 00:07:57,990 --> 00:07:55,840 full stories and to try to undermine 200 00:08:00,150 --> 00:07:58,000 some of the people who were reporting 201 00:08:01,909 --> 00:08:00,160 these things and and try to paint them 202 00:08:04,230 --> 00:08:01,919 as communist subversive i mean there's a 203 00:08:06,309 --> 00:08:04,240 long unhappy history of this 204 00:08:08,309 --> 00:08:06,319 um so 205 00:08:10,390 --> 00:08:08,319 i would say the public has been ahead of 206 00:08:12,469 --> 00:08:10,400 the government because people have seen 207 00:08:13,830 --> 00:08:12,479 these things they know they exist now 208 00:08:15,589 --> 00:08:13,840 the government is admitting that they 209 00:08:17,430 --> 00:08:15,599 exist now 210 00:08:18,390 --> 00:08:17,440 um 211 00:08:20,469 --> 00:08:18,400 you know 212 00:08:22,710 --> 00:08:20,479 jumping ahead to alien encounters i 213 00:08:25,350 --> 00:08:22,720 think there's still a lot of skepticism 214 00:08:28,710 --> 00:08:25,360 for the very nature of the phenomenon 215 00:08:34,550 --> 00:08:30,869 these experiences are not happening in 216 00:08:36,149 --> 00:08:34,560 our everyday reality that we can tell 217 00:08:39,029 --> 00:08:36,159 that's that's the difference that the 218 00:08:43,430 --> 00:08:39,039 ufos have been cited by pilots and 219 00:08:46,230 --> 00:08:43,440 captured on radar and imaging devices um 220 00:08:48,230 --> 00:08:46,240 encounters with alien beings have not 221 00:08:49,910 --> 00:08:48,240 been 222 00:08:51,430 --> 00:08:49,920 captured on instruments 223 00:08:53,590 --> 00:08:51,440 um and 224 00:08:56,470 --> 00:08:53,600 people who have had these experiences 225 00:08:59,670 --> 00:08:56,480 are adamant that they that they happened 226 00:09:01,269 --> 00:08:59,680 okay that they that they were real 227 00:09:03,030 --> 00:09:01,279 there was not a dream 228 00:09:05,670 --> 00:09:03,040 and people who have not had these 229 00:09:08,150 --> 00:09:05,680 experiences cannot imagine 230 00:09:09,509 --> 00:09:08,160 that this could be possible so that's 231 00:09:11,430 --> 00:09:09,519 the problem 232 00:09:13,430 --> 00:09:11,440 and um 233 00:09:15,910 --> 00:09:13,440 that's why i mean a lot of scientific 234 00:09:16,949 --> 00:09:15,920 work still has to be done to figure out 235 00:09:18,310 --> 00:09:16,959 um 236 00:09:20,389 --> 00:09:18,320 you know the nature of this phenomenon 237 00:09:22,949 --> 00:09:20,399 john mack ended up thinking that that 238 00:09:27,030 --> 00:09:22,959 these encounters were happening in some 239 00:09:29,670 --> 00:09:27,040 twilight zone a liminal area between 240 00:09:31,670 --> 00:09:29,680 our our reality and something else it's 241 00:09:34,230 --> 00:09:31,680 coming to us penetrating from another 242 00:09:36,870 --> 00:09:34,240 reality or another dimension or 243 00:09:39,110 --> 00:09:36,880 something um and considering how little 244 00:09:40,550 --> 00:09:39,120 we know about i mean we know certain 245 00:09:42,310 --> 00:09:40,560 laws of physics 246 00:09:45,110 --> 00:09:42,320 um but how little we know about the 247 00:09:47,829 --> 00:09:45,120 makeup of the universe we 95 of it is a 248 00:09:51,190 --> 00:09:47,839 mystery hard i mean dark matter and dark 249 00:09:52,630 --> 00:09:51,200 energy so we we don't know everything 250 00:09:54,310 --> 00:09:52,640 so um 251 00:09:55,590 --> 00:09:54,320 you know where these experiences are 252 00:09:58,389 --> 00:09:55,600 coming from 253 00:10:00,230 --> 00:09:58,399 and why they don't happen in front of us 254 00:10:03,030 --> 00:10:00,240 so that we could see them and and say 255 00:10:05,110 --> 00:10:03,040 yeah it's absolute reality they're not 256 00:10:09,269 --> 00:10:05,120 um that 257 00:10:11,190 --> 00:10:09,279 absolutely remains to be studied 258 00:10:13,269 --> 00:10:11,200 it's interesting ralph because you said 259 00:10:15,750 --> 00:10:13,279 in the turn of phrase that these people 260 00:10:17,509 --> 00:10:15,760 are are adamant this wasn't a dream but 261 00:10:19,750 --> 00:10:17,519 it actually might be the case that some 262 00:10:22,069 --> 00:10:19,760 of these are dreams but in the same 263 00:10:24,630 --> 00:10:22,079 respect they are still happening because 264 00:10:26,230 --> 00:10:24,640 maybe those dreams are in that twilight 265 00:10:28,069 --> 00:10:26,240 area of you know the conscious and 266 00:10:29,990 --> 00:10:28,079 subconscious and 267 00:10:31,509 --> 00:10:30,000 it may be that physically you could see 268 00:10:33,509 --> 00:10:31,519 someone and i've discussed this on the 269 00:10:35,509 --> 00:10:33,519 podcast before someone could have an 270 00:10:37,030 --> 00:10:35,519 abduction experience but you would 271 00:10:38,790 --> 00:10:37,040 physically stand beside them in their 272 00:10:39,829 --> 00:10:38,800 bed for example and never see them leave 273 00:10:42,389 --> 00:10:39,839 the bed 274 00:10:43,910 --> 00:10:42,399 but the unconscious mind could be 275 00:10:45,990 --> 00:10:43,920 somewhere else and that's that's quite 276 00:10:47,430 --> 00:10:46,000 an interesting interesting way to look 277 00:10:48,630 --> 00:10:47,440 at it 278 00:10:50,310 --> 00:10:48,640 yes i mean 279 00:10:52,389 --> 00:10:50,320 that's a very good point 280 00:10:53,910 --> 00:10:52,399 that there is no agreement 281 00:10:56,870 --> 00:10:53,920 on um 282 00:10:58,230 --> 00:10:56,880 the physical aspect of abduction i mean 283 00:11:01,030 --> 00:10:58,240 of course there's no agreement the whole 284 00:11:02,790 --> 00:11:01,040 thing is a big mystery but um in my book 285 00:11:06,310 --> 00:11:02,800 i cite um 286 00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:06,320 uh two stories uh one as i said was the 287 00:11:09,590 --> 00:11:07,760 one about the two girls with the 288 00:11:11,670 --> 00:11:09,600 sleepover and they disappeared during 289 00:11:13,350 --> 00:11:11,680 the night 290 00:11:14,949 --> 00:11:13,360 the mother found them missing and then 291 00:11:16,710 --> 00:11:14,959 they reappeared in their beds and they 292 00:11:18,550 --> 00:11:16,720 remembered having some kind of abduction 293 00:11:20,310 --> 00:11:18,560 experience so that would suggest 294 00:11:21,910 --> 00:11:20,320 a physical absence 295 00:11:23,509 --> 00:11:21,920 but there was another case that was 296 00:11:26,389 --> 00:11:23,519 discussed at the 297 00:11:29,350 --> 00:11:26,399 mit conference in 1992 of the conference 298 00:11:31,590 --> 00:11:29,360 at mit mit didn't really 299 00:11:34,470 --> 00:11:31,600 sponsor the conference it just provided 300 00:11:36,790 --> 00:11:34,480 a venue but anyway there was a case um 301 00:11:39,670 --> 00:11:36,800 discussed of a woman 302 00:11:43,750 --> 00:11:39,680 who fainted in her husband's arms 303 00:11:47,190 --> 00:11:43,760 and uh and thought uh or felt that she 304 00:11:49,990 --> 00:11:47,200 was uh flying uh levitating uh up into 305 00:11:51,590 --> 00:11:50,000 the sky and had all these uh out-of-body 306 00:11:53,670 --> 00:11:51,600 experiences 307 00:11:55,910 --> 00:11:53,680 uh while he was holding her 308 00:11:58,150 --> 00:11:55,920 and he he said later she was definitely 309 00:12:00,629 --> 00:11:58,160 there in my arms but she 310 00:12:03,910 --> 00:12:00,639 remembered or felt that she was 311 00:12:05,509 --> 00:12:03,920 somewhere else so those are two cases 312 00:12:06,389 --> 00:12:05,519 completely opposite 313 00:12:08,870 --> 00:12:06,399 of 314 00:12:10,710 --> 00:12:08,880 the two girls who were physically absent 315 00:12:12,550 --> 00:12:10,720 and the woman who was in her husband's 316 00:12:14,790 --> 00:12:12,560 arms um 317 00:12:16,389 --> 00:12:14,800 so um 318 00:12:19,350 --> 00:12:16,399 make of that what you will 319 00:12:21,269 --> 00:12:19,360 there is no easy answer to this question 320 00:12:23,509 --> 00:12:21,279 and and the article i wrote for vanity 321 00:12:26,310 --> 00:12:23,519 fair in 2013 which was really a work in 322 00:12:30,230 --> 00:12:26,320 progress on my book which came out in 323 00:12:32,389 --> 00:12:30,240 you know 2021 um 324 00:12:34,470 --> 00:12:32,399 you know just started off with the 325 00:12:35,990 --> 00:12:34,480 question are you physically absent when 326 00:12:37,350 --> 00:12:36,000 you're abducted 327 00:12:39,430 --> 00:12:37,360 according to 328 00:12:40,870 --> 00:12:39,440 you know experiencers 329 00:12:42,790 --> 00:12:40,880 and um 330 00:12:45,350 --> 00:12:42,800 they grapple with this some say you are 331 00:12:46,870 --> 00:12:45,360 absent some say you're not absent it's 332 00:12:48,470 --> 00:12:46,880 an out-of-body experience and 333 00:12:52,629 --> 00:12:48,480 out-of-body experiences by the way are 334 00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:52,639 recognized it's a psychiatric syndrome 335 00:12:56,870 --> 00:12:54,560 with you know a lot has been written 336 00:12:59,269 --> 00:12:56,880 about it uh people imagine that they're 337 00:13:01,190 --> 00:12:59,279 out of their bodies um and it happens 338 00:13:01,990 --> 00:13:01,200 often in near-death experiences where 339 00:13:04,069 --> 00:13:02,000 people 340 00:13:06,629 --> 00:13:04,079 uh feel they leave their bodies and then 341 00:13:09,350 --> 00:13:06,639 come back to their bodies so 342 00:13:10,550 --> 00:13:09,360 it's it's a very complicated story and 343 00:13:12,150 --> 00:13:10,560 um 344 00:13:16,230 --> 00:13:12,160 you know again no easy answer but 345 00:13:19,590 --> 00:13:17,670 and something your colleague leslie 346 00:13:22,069 --> 00:13:19,600 keane has an interest in with her 347 00:13:24,550 --> 00:13:22,079 documentaries as well on surviving death 348 00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:24,560 now i would ask ralph um recently many 349 00:13:29,030 --> 00:13:26,880 experiencers online 350 00:13:30,790 --> 00:13:29,040 including social media have been voicing 351 00:13:33,110 --> 00:13:30,800 their frustrations that they're not 352 00:13:35,590 --> 00:13:33,120 being heard they're not being considered 353 00:13:38,389 --> 00:13:35,600 in this conversation and i i've spoken 354 00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:38,399 to some of them myself on dms or just on 355 00:13:42,790 --> 00:13:40,480 various threads and i would always 356 00:13:44,949 --> 00:13:42,800 listen to someone's story is that the 357 00:13:47,750 --> 00:13:44,959 frustration that you share and what 358 00:13:48,790 --> 00:13:47,760 would you say to them 359 00:13:51,590 --> 00:13:48,800 definitely 360 00:13:56,069 --> 00:13:51,600 understand their frustration 361 00:13:57,829 --> 00:13:56,079 in in the debrief article i just ran 362 00:14:00,949 --> 00:13:57,839 i include four 363 00:14:03,670 --> 00:14:00,959 uh verbatim accounts of experiences and 364 00:14:05,350 --> 00:14:03,680 i i applaud their courage actually in 365 00:14:07,750 --> 00:14:05,360 entrusting me with their stories they're 366 00:14:09,829 --> 00:14:07,760 identified um they're not operating 367 00:14:11,750 --> 00:14:09,839 under pseudonyms i mean i feel that's 368 00:14:14,069 --> 00:14:11,760 very important in this kind of reporting 369 00:14:16,870 --> 00:14:14,079 it's too easy to give people pseudonyms 370 00:14:19,350 --> 00:14:16,880 or disguise their identity and my 371 00:14:22,470 --> 00:14:19,360 training at the new york times always is 372 00:14:24,629 --> 00:14:22,480 you know no pseudonyms uh names whenever 373 00:14:26,629 --> 00:14:24,639 possible uh because that gives 374 00:14:29,430 --> 00:14:26,639 credibility to a story 375 00:14:31,829 --> 00:14:29,440 so these four people uh three woman 376 00:14:35,030 --> 00:14:31,839 three women and a man 377 00:14:38,550 --> 00:14:35,040 agreed to share their stories with me 378 00:14:40,310 --> 00:14:38,560 as as wild and bizarre as they as they 379 00:14:42,310 --> 00:14:40,320 sound 380 00:14:44,150 --> 00:14:42,320 and they are identified 381 00:14:46,470 --> 00:14:44,160 they stand behind these stories they 382 00:14:49,430 --> 00:14:46,480 don't understand it themselves you know 383 00:14:52,550 --> 00:14:49,440 what happened to them and why 384 00:14:55,590 --> 00:14:52,560 um it doesn't seem possible i mean you 385 00:14:58,790 --> 00:14:55,600 know as john mack said many times they 386 00:14:59,990 --> 00:14:58,800 they sound totally impossible to people 387 00:15:01,750 --> 00:15:00,000 who have not 388 00:15:03,750 --> 00:15:01,760 encountered this so these people are 389 00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:03,760 very frustrated they do feel they are 390 00:15:10,389 --> 00:15:05,760 they are marginalized by society they're 391 00:15:15,189 --> 00:15:12,710 discuss this even with family members 392 00:15:16,550 --> 00:15:15,199 for fear of being ostracized labeled you 393 00:15:18,790 --> 00:15:16,560 know insane 394 00:15:21,350 --> 00:15:18,800 uh because it doesn't comport with our 395 00:15:23,910 --> 00:15:21,360 reality and yet these are 396 00:15:25,110 --> 00:15:23,920 as john mack established eminently sane 397 00:15:27,350 --> 00:15:25,120 people 398 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:27,360 who apart from this 399 00:15:29,030 --> 00:15:27,890 um 400 00:15:31,350 --> 00:15:29,040 [Music] 401 00:15:33,749 --> 00:15:31,360 are completely ordinary i mean and that 402 00:15:36,949 --> 00:15:33,759 is to say they are not 403 00:15:38,790 --> 00:15:36,959 um bereft of traumatic experience some 404 00:15:42,069 --> 00:15:38,800 of them are rape victims some of them 405 00:15:44,389 --> 00:15:42,079 had you know uh unpleasant family 406 00:15:45,590 --> 00:15:44,399 experiences traumas all kinds of 407 00:15:47,590 --> 00:15:45,600 problems 408 00:15:49,509 --> 00:15:47,600 these are ordinary people 409 00:15:50,949 --> 00:15:49,519 so it's not to say these people nothing 410 00:15:52,790 --> 00:15:50,959 has ever happened to these people 411 00:15:55,350 --> 00:15:52,800 they're you know they're 412 00:15:56,550 --> 00:15:55,360 on the contrary they are normal with all 413 00:16:00,629 --> 00:15:56,560 the normal 414 00:16:01,430 --> 00:16:00,639 um frustrations uh but they're not crazy 415 00:16:02,870 --> 00:16:01,440 so 416 00:16:04,310 --> 00:16:02,880 that's that's one of the things that 417 00:16:06,069 --> 00:16:04,320 struck john mack they come from all 418 00:16:08,710 --> 00:16:06,079 walks of life they're completely 419 00:16:12,150 --> 00:16:08,720 representative of the human population 420 00:16:13,990 --> 00:16:12,160 including young children as i said 421 00:16:15,910 --> 00:16:14,000 and yet we don't understand why they 422 00:16:18,470 --> 00:16:15,920 were picked out 423 00:16:20,790 --> 00:16:18,480 um for these experiences and by the way 424 00:16:22,550 --> 00:16:20,800 it's well known in the literature that 425 00:16:24,710 --> 00:16:22,560 that these experiences seem to run in 426 00:16:26,629 --> 00:16:24,720 families that um 427 00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:26,639 if your grandparents have had the 428 00:16:30,710 --> 00:16:28,880 experiences then their children and and 429 00:16:33,110 --> 00:16:30,720 the grandchildren have had them and 430 00:16:36,389 --> 00:16:33,120 parents have said many times that they 431 00:16:38,389 --> 00:16:36,399 they see these experiences now 432 00:16:41,590 --> 00:16:38,399 coming to their children 433 00:16:43,990 --> 00:16:41,600 so for some reason uh it follows some 434 00:16:46,550 --> 00:16:44,000 kind of family line not always 435 00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:46,560 and it also seems to center on on people 436 00:16:49,509 --> 00:16:48,480 in the reproductive years 437 00:16:51,590 --> 00:16:49,519 so 438 00:16:54,310 --> 00:16:51,600 again that's a simple matter of of 439 00:16:56,790 --> 00:16:54,320 tabulating the uh polling you know the 440 00:16:59,030 --> 00:16:56,800 this this population as difficult as it 441 00:17:02,310 --> 00:16:59,040 is to get people to to cooperate and 442 00:17:05,110 --> 00:17:02,320 talk but um you know there are certain 443 00:17:08,150 --> 00:17:05,120 common elements to this even though the 444 00:17:11,029 --> 00:17:08,160 population as i said it cuts across all 445 00:17:16,069 --> 00:17:13,350 now you've talked about the the normal 446 00:17:17,829 --> 00:17:16,079 everyday person and and what you've said 447 00:17:19,909 --> 00:17:17,839 there and of course you've got those 448 00:17:21,510 --> 00:17:19,919 case studies within the article as well 449 00:17:23,510 --> 00:17:21,520 i i would encourage people to go and 450 00:17:24,870 --> 00:17:23,520 read that article if they haven't 451 00:17:27,510 --> 00:17:24,880 already the link will be in the 452 00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:27,520 description for the show as well as that 453 00:17:31,590 --> 00:17:29,760 though many famous names are cited in 454 00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:31,600 your article names such as kendrick 455 00:17:35,029 --> 00:17:32,400 lamar 456 00:17:37,350 --> 00:17:35,039 demi lovato and lupe fiasco there are 457 00:17:39,590 --> 00:17:37,360 more recent names that a much younger 458 00:17:41,750 --> 00:17:39,600 crowd will no doubt be aware of 459 00:17:44,150 --> 00:17:41,760 how important for you is it that 460 00:17:46,950 --> 00:17:44,160 celebrities of this magnitude are 461 00:17:48,789 --> 00:17:46,960 discussing these sorts of experiences 462 00:17:51,270 --> 00:17:48,799 yeah i i thought it was quite striking 463 00:17:55,029 --> 00:17:51,280 and as as you said exactly right i 464 00:17:57,350 --> 00:17:55,039 wanted to relate this subject to a young 465 00:18:00,870 --> 00:17:57,360 audience and they certainly know 466 00:18:02,710 --> 00:18:00,880 kendrick lamar and demi lovato and 467 00:18:05,350 --> 00:18:02,720 lupe fiasco these are people who are 468 00:18:07,669 --> 00:18:05,360 cultural icons not to speak of john 469 00:18:10,549 --> 00:18:07,679 lennon and elvis 470 00:18:12,150 --> 00:18:10,559 from a previous generation 471 00:18:14,470 --> 00:18:12,160 but 472 00:18:15,669 --> 00:18:14,480 so these people have had you know again 473 00:18:18,070 --> 00:18:15,679 uh 474 00:18:20,470 --> 00:18:18,080 this is a cross-section of humanity that 475 00:18:22,150 --> 00:18:20,480 is reporting these experiences uh there 476 00:18:24,710 --> 00:18:22,160 are celebrities there are ordinary 477 00:18:27,669 --> 00:18:24,720 people there are police officers um 478 00:18:29,510 --> 00:18:27,679 there are uh you know people from from 479 00:18:30,470 --> 00:18:29,520 scientific background 480 00:18:37,750 --> 00:18:30,480 um 481 00:18:39,110 --> 00:18:37,760 you know happening to only one one kind 482 00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:39,120 of person you know somebody who's 483 00:18:43,029 --> 00:18:41,200 mentally unstable let's say it's not 484 00:18:44,070 --> 00:18:43,039 true 485 00:18:46,470 --> 00:18:44,080 and 486 00:18:48,150 --> 00:18:46,480 it is interesting that these celebrities 487 00:18:50,950 --> 00:18:48,160 that i quote in the article they didn't 488 00:18:52,870 --> 00:18:50,960 talk to me i tried to get interviews 489 00:18:55,830 --> 00:18:52,880 with them but okay you know it's 490 00:18:59,510 --> 00:18:55,840 difficult to pin down a celebrity but 491 00:19:00,950 --> 00:18:59,520 they did say this in public forums um on 492 00:19:02,870 --> 00:19:00,960 the air 493 00:19:05,990 --> 00:19:02,880 and demi lovato actually has a show 494 00:19:08,870 --> 00:19:06,000 starting uh this week 495 00:19:10,310 --> 00:19:08,880 unidentified uh i haven't seen it i 496 00:19:12,070 --> 00:19:10,320 haven't seen the trails i don't know you 497 00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:12,080 know where the show goes what she says 498 00:19:16,950 --> 00:19:14,960 but anyway um it is interesting that 499 00:19:18,710 --> 00:19:16,960 celebrities have had these experiences 500 00:19:20,950 --> 00:19:18,720 too 501 00:19:23,909 --> 00:19:20,960 is there a danger given some of these 502 00:19:26,230 --> 00:19:23,919 personalities and and bigger names 503 00:19:27,750 --> 00:19:26,240 they've had controversies or you know 504 00:19:30,710 --> 00:19:27,760 odd behaviors 505 00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:30,720 that it can enforce the stigma attached 506 00:19:34,710 --> 00:19:32,640 to the subject and the way that the 507 00:19:36,470 --> 00:19:34,720 wider media may now report on it 508 00:19:38,390 --> 00:19:36,480 famously from a uk point of view the 509 00:19:41,590 --> 00:19:38,400 singer robbie williams has been attached 510 00:19:43,590 --> 00:19:41,600 to jeremy corbell and skinwalker ranch 511 00:19:46,070 --> 00:19:43,600 along with george knapp and robbie 512 00:19:48,150 --> 00:19:46,080 williams i'm a fan of his stuff from the 513 00:19:50,470 --> 00:19:48,160 early 2000s i grew up with with robbie 514 00:19:53,029 --> 00:19:50,480 williams really good great musician but 515 00:19:55,430 --> 00:19:53,039 it's no secret as he's gotten older he 516 00:19:57,669 --> 00:19:55,440 gets reported on as being a little bit 517 00:20:00,070 --> 00:19:57,679 crazier for one of a better word by the 518 00:20:01,909 --> 00:20:00,080 media do you think that can enforce that 519 00:20:04,549 --> 00:20:01,919 stigma or do you still think the pros 520 00:20:06,390 --> 00:20:04,559 outweigh the cons well you know the more 521 00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:06,400 i like to think that the more we write 522 00:20:11,510 --> 00:20:08,880 about this and the more we 523 00:20:13,669 --> 00:20:11,520 uh stress the point that first of all 524 00:20:15,909 --> 00:20:13,679 there's no there should be no stigma 525 00:20:17,909 --> 00:20:15,919 attached this is an experience these 526 00:20:19,590 --> 00:20:17,919 people didn't want 527 00:20:21,510 --> 00:20:19,600 these experiences to happen they're not 528 00:20:22,710 --> 00:20:21,520 profiting from these experiences on the 529 00:20:24,390 --> 00:20:22,720 contrary 530 00:20:26,149 --> 00:20:24,400 they're they're shy they're running 531 00:20:27,669 --> 00:20:26,159 they're embarrassed they're ashamed even 532 00:20:31,590 --> 00:20:27,679 though they have no reason to be ashamed 533 00:20:32,549 --> 00:20:31,600 but um but the more we we discuss this 534 00:20:36,070 --> 00:20:32,559 um 535 00:20:37,510 --> 00:20:36,080 i think it helps to erase the stigma but 536 00:20:38,950 --> 00:20:37,520 um 537 00:20:41,430 --> 00:20:38,960 and that's why it was interesting that 538 00:20:43,510 --> 00:20:41,440 you know lupe fiasco and kendrick lamar 539 00:20:44,470 --> 00:20:43,520 and others have mentioned it in a public 540 00:20:45,830 --> 00:20:44,480 way 541 00:20:48,070 --> 00:20:45,840 um 542 00:20:49,750 --> 00:20:48,080 and i think it's it's brave of them to 543 00:20:51,190 --> 00:20:49,760 to combat this and they can do it 544 00:20:52,230 --> 00:20:51,200 because they're celebrities in other 545 00:20:53,190 --> 00:20:52,240 words they 546 00:20:55,110 --> 00:20:53,200 um 547 00:20:56,870 --> 00:20:55,120 they have a guaranteed following you 548 00:20:59,669 --> 00:20:56,880 know no matter what they say 549 00:21:01,029 --> 00:20:59,679 and uh they're insulated let's say from 550 00:21:03,350 --> 00:21:01,039 you know some of the 551 00:21:05,430 --> 00:21:03,360 um 552 00:21:07,350 --> 00:21:05,440 you know setbacks that ordinary people 553 00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:07,360 might have in in their jobs or their 554 00:21:11,029 --> 00:21:09,120 relationships with their with their 555 00:21:12,950 --> 00:21:11,039 peers so a celebrity is in a 556 00:21:13,830 --> 00:21:12,960 particularly good position 557 00:21:17,190 --> 00:21:13,840 to 558 00:21:19,190 --> 00:21:17,200 sort of combat this stigma but um so i 559 00:21:21,110 --> 00:21:19,200 think the more we we discuss it and 560 00:21:22,710 --> 00:21:21,120 hammer home the point that these people 561 00:21:25,190 --> 00:21:22,720 did nothing wrong 562 00:21:27,270 --> 00:21:25,200 they're not seeking these experiences 563 00:21:29,270 --> 00:21:27,280 they're not profiting by these 564 00:21:31,430 --> 00:21:29,280 experiences they're not you know 565 00:21:33,990 --> 00:21:31,440 as i say on the contrary they're they're 566 00:21:36,149 --> 00:21:34,000 trying to shrug them off or or 567 00:21:38,789 --> 00:21:36,159 downplay them or run away from them 568 00:21:41,029 --> 00:21:38,799 uh but the more we understand that there 569 00:21:42,549 --> 00:21:41,039 is a mystery here that's the number one 570 00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:42,559 takeaway from this whole thing that i 571 00:21:47,110 --> 00:21:44,480 got in writing my book there is a 572 00:21:48,710 --> 00:21:47,120 legitimate mystery here it is not 573 00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:48,720 something that these the so-called 574 00:21:53,830 --> 00:21:52,320 skeptics and debunkers can um you know 575 00:21:55,669 --> 00:21:53,840 point to and say oh 576 00:21:57,350 --> 00:21:55,679 this is easy you know this is it's this 577 00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:57,360 it's this it's that 578 00:22:00,310 --> 00:21:58,400 it's not 579 00:22:01,430 --> 00:22:00,320 we don't know what it is 580 00:22:03,510 --> 00:22:01,440 um 581 00:22:06,870 --> 00:22:03,520 so little by little you know i think we 582 00:22:09,270 --> 00:22:06,880 can hammer away at that stigma 583 00:22:11,830 --> 00:22:09,280 ralph humans can be seen as an 584 00:22:14,230 --> 00:22:11,840 unreliable sensor so some people can 585 00:22:16,870 --> 00:22:14,240 argue that gathering reliable abduction 586 00:22:18,950 --> 00:22:16,880 data can be tough how can we build on 587 00:22:21,590 --> 00:22:18,960 john mack's work and gather data in a 588 00:22:23,350 --> 00:22:21,600 way that's satisfying to science 589 00:22:25,029 --> 00:22:23,360 well good question 590 00:22:27,110 --> 00:22:25,039 some people are doing that i mean gary 591 00:22:29,590 --> 00:22:27,120 nolan at stanford university jacques 592 00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:31,750 these are people who are lending their 593 00:22:36,549 --> 00:22:33,840 scientific 594 00:22:39,110 --> 00:22:36,559 stature and it's it's it's a high one 595 00:22:42,549 --> 00:22:39,120 and and abby loeb um 596 00:22:45,830 --> 00:22:42,559 um at harvard um lending their stature 597 00:22:47,110 --> 00:22:45,840 to um scientific inquiry 598 00:22:49,510 --> 00:22:47,120 in other words the scientific 599 00:22:51,430 --> 00:22:49,520 establishment has to be assured 600 00:22:53,510 --> 00:22:51,440 um 601 00:22:56,390 --> 00:22:53,520 that they can look into these questions 602 00:22:58,630 --> 00:22:56,400 without being stigmatized and i mean and 603 00:23:00,549 --> 00:22:58,640 there's a way of doing it 604 00:23:03,110 --> 00:23:00,559 scientifically i mean 605 00:23:08,230 --> 00:23:03,120 look the internet is full of wild 606 00:23:10,390 --> 00:23:08,240 speculation sensational stories and um i 607 00:23:12,070 --> 00:23:10,400 think um 608 00:23:13,990 --> 00:23:12,080 not everything out there has to be 609 00:23:15,830 --> 00:23:14,000 believed or you know should be taken at 610 00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:15,840 face value certainly 611 00:23:19,990 --> 00:23:18,080 um but there is a way 612 00:23:21,270 --> 00:23:20,000 uh for responsible 613 00:23:23,909 --> 00:23:21,280 science 614 00:23:25,990 --> 00:23:23,919 and uh and leaders in in various 615 00:23:26,870 --> 00:23:26,000 disciplines including religion scholars 616 00:23:29,270 --> 00:23:26,880 who have 617 00:23:31,830 --> 00:23:29,280 been fascinated by this discussion 618 00:23:34,870 --> 00:23:31,840 because they see parallels to the early 619 00:23:39,110 --> 00:23:34,880 accounts of so-called miracles let's say 620 00:23:42,470 --> 00:23:40,710 that it can be 621 00:23:45,110 --> 00:23:42,480 there's nothing that is unscientific 622 00:23:46,870 --> 00:23:45,120 about the subject in other words it is 623 00:23:49,269 --> 00:23:46,880 amenable to study 624 00:23:53,350 --> 00:23:49,279 and we just have to find 625 00:23:57,750 --> 00:23:54,950 mobilize you know 626 00:23:59,669 --> 00:23:57,760 at the end of my book the believer 627 00:24:01,510 --> 00:23:59,679 i talk about the billions of dollars 628 00:24:04,390 --> 00:24:01,520 that have been spent hunting for elusive 629 00:24:06,149 --> 00:24:04,400 particles like the higgs boson which was 630 00:24:09,269 --> 00:24:06,159 found just a few years ago after 631 00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:09,279 billions and billions of of collisions 632 00:24:14,630 --> 00:24:12,480 uh with an underground accelerator and 633 00:24:16,549 --> 00:24:14,640 they finally found one particle out of 634 00:24:18,789 --> 00:24:16,559 billions and trillions of collisions and 635 00:24:20,390 --> 00:24:18,799 it lasted a you know a tiny fraction of 636 00:24:23,909 --> 00:24:20,400 a second 637 00:24:26,470 --> 00:24:23,919 there's a picture now of a black hole 55 638 00:24:28,950 --> 00:24:26,480 million light years away 639 00:24:31,110 --> 00:24:28,960 an image that 640 00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:31,120 scientists have astronomers have gotten 641 00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:34,480 and then caused a huge stir a few years 642 00:24:37,110 --> 00:24:36,000 very few years ago 643 00:24:39,669 --> 00:24:37,120 um 644 00:24:42,070 --> 00:24:39,679 and the mill billions and billions of 645 00:24:47,029 --> 00:24:42,080 dollars have been spent uh 646 00:24:48,870 --> 00:24:47,039 you know finding these uh colossal um 647 00:24:50,870 --> 00:24:48,880 mystery or you know 648 00:24:53,190 --> 00:24:50,880 illuminating these mysteries let's say a 649 00:24:55,029 --> 00:24:53,200 picture actual picture of a black hole 650 00:24:55,830 --> 00:24:55,039 the first one we've ever had 651 00:24:57,909 --> 00:24:55,840 um 652 00:25:00,549 --> 00:24:57,919 and this higgs boson 653 00:25:03,190 --> 00:25:00,559 so if a fraction of that money 654 00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:03,200 were to be applied to um 655 00:25:08,390 --> 00:25:05,760 studying the alien abduction phenomenon 656 00:25:10,630 --> 00:25:08,400 and understanding what changes uh are 657 00:25:12,390 --> 00:25:10,640 taking place in the bodies of people 658 00:25:14,470 --> 00:25:12,400 reporting these things if if indeed 659 00:25:15,909 --> 00:25:14,480 there are these changes what's going on 660 00:25:18,149 --> 00:25:15,919 in brain function 661 00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:18,159 um 662 00:25:22,470 --> 00:25:20,320 are there ways of capturing 663 00:25:24,549 --> 00:25:22,480 images of these experiences in some in 664 00:25:26,230 --> 00:25:24,559 some way 665 00:25:27,909 --> 00:25:26,240 these are all legitimate scientific 666 00:25:29,590 --> 00:25:27,919 questions because these people these 667 00:25:31,510 --> 00:25:29,600 people are not making it up something is 668 00:25:34,230 --> 00:25:31,520 happening to them that we don't 669 00:25:37,110 --> 00:25:34,240 understand um and it's worth scientific 670 00:25:40,789 --> 00:25:38,549 ralph just before we get to some 671 00:25:43,590 --> 00:25:40,799 listener questions i want to mention our 672 00:25:45,590 --> 00:25:43,600 friend james ian doley over at engaging 673 00:25:47,830 --> 00:25:45,600 the phenomenon podcast now some in the 674 00:25:49,990 --> 00:25:47,840 community are are pushing for a crash 675 00:25:53,269 --> 00:25:50,000 retrieval awareness week uh from the 676 00:25:55,350 --> 00:25:53,279 17th to the 21st for the 24th sorry of 677 00:25:56,870 --> 00:25:55,360 october so it'd be remiss of me to not 678 00:25:59,190 --> 00:25:56,880 ask you a couple of questions before we 679 00:26:01,510 --> 00:25:59,200 get to the listener queues on that now 680 00:26:04,310 --> 00:26:01,520 uh the wilson documents as you'll be 681 00:26:05,909 --> 00:26:04,320 very well aware of it were edited out of 682 00:26:08,549 --> 00:26:05,919 one of your articles for the new york 683 00:26:10,710 --> 00:26:08,559 times where you given a reason for this 684 00:26:13,110 --> 00:26:10,720 and what would have to happen to see it 685 00:26:15,350 --> 00:26:13,120 featured in the future 686 00:26:17,029 --> 00:26:15,360 okay well that nothing would they wasn't 687 00:26:19,590 --> 00:26:17,039 edited out of the article it was never 688 00:26:22,070 --> 00:26:19,600 in the article um there's a lot of stuff 689 00:26:24,390 --> 00:26:22,080 that was not in our articles because we 690 00:26:27,510 --> 00:26:24,400 never could 691 00:26:29,430 --> 00:26:27,520 build a good enough foundation 692 00:26:32,310 --> 00:26:29,440 and i must say that one of the 693 00:26:34,310 --> 00:26:32,320 frustrations that leslie and i had 694 00:26:35,510 --> 00:26:34,320 was trying to write some of our articles 695 00:26:37,350 --> 00:26:35,520 with the 696 00:26:38,390 --> 00:26:37,360 voices of the internet nipping at our 697 00:26:39,430 --> 00:26:38,400 heels 698 00:26:45,590 --> 00:26:39,440 and 699 00:26:47,590 --> 00:26:45,600 working on this um we interview a lot of 700 00:26:49,990 --> 00:26:47,600 people and not everything we 701 00:26:51,990 --> 00:26:50,000 we pursue or not everybody we interview 702 00:26:53,830 --> 00:26:52,000 gets into the new york times because we 703 00:26:56,070 --> 00:26:53,840 can't establish it we can't get them on 704 00:26:57,909 --> 00:26:56,080 the record all kinds of things so it 705 00:26:59,909 --> 00:26:57,919 really has not been helpful 706 00:27:01,350 --> 00:26:59,919 to try to write some of these articles 707 00:27:02,950 --> 00:27:01,360 with um 708 00:27:05,029 --> 00:27:02,960 you know 709 00:27:07,190 --> 00:27:05,039 people nipping at our heels and and 710 00:27:09,590 --> 00:27:07,200 review quote revealing things about our 711 00:27:11,669 --> 00:27:09,600 methodology and people we talk to that 712 00:27:13,909 --> 00:27:11,679 really is part of our work product that 713 00:27:16,149 --> 00:27:13,919 that um the reason we didn't put it in 714 00:27:18,310 --> 00:27:16,159 the new york times is it was it didn't 715 00:27:21,269 --> 00:27:18,320 rise to the level of new york times 716 00:27:22,789 --> 00:27:21,279 reportage okay um 717 00:27:25,110 --> 00:27:22,799 so there were a lot of things that 718 00:27:26,630 --> 00:27:25,120 didn't you know make it into the article 719 00:27:28,470 --> 00:27:26,640 now the crash retrieval is a very 720 00:27:31,350 --> 00:27:28,480 difficult subject 721 00:27:34,149 --> 00:27:31,360 it's largely classified 722 00:27:37,830 --> 00:27:34,159 what the government has if it has 723 00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:37,840 materials from crashed vehicles um 724 00:27:42,950 --> 00:27:41,520 is buried deep inside uh different um 725 00:27:45,430 --> 00:27:42,960 you know 726 00:27:48,630 --> 00:27:45,440 elements in in the pentagon or private 727 00:27:50,630 --> 00:27:48,640 contractors uh we we have not been able 728 00:27:54,549 --> 00:27:50,640 to get at that data which i think we 729 00:27:56,470 --> 00:27:54,559 we've said uh in so many words um what 730 00:27:58,630 --> 00:27:56,480 we could get and we put in our last 731 00:28:01,510 --> 00:27:58,640 article was that 732 00:28:02,870 --> 00:28:01,520 congressional committees were briefed 733 00:28:04,789 --> 00:28:02,880 about 734 00:28:07,350 --> 00:28:04,799 uh 735 00:28:11,110 --> 00:28:07,360 purported retrievals of some of some 736 00:28:12,870 --> 00:28:11,120 crashed materials okay 737 00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:12,880 we found it significant and worth 738 00:28:16,789 --> 00:28:15,120 reporting that members of congress 739 00:28:19,430 --> 00:28:16,799 congressional committees 740 00:28:21,269 --> 00:28:19,440 let's say certainly staff members 741 00:28:24,950 --> 00:28:21,279 were briefed 742 00:28:26,310 --> 00:28:24,960 by eric davis and others 743 00:28:28,389 --> 00:28:26,320 about 744 00:28:30,310 --> 00:28:28,399 some of this information now we we don't 745 00:28:32,870 --> 00:28:30,320 know exactly what information and we 746 00:28:34,630 --> 00:28:32,880 don't know what you know we can't verify 747 00:28:36,230 --> 00:28:34,640 what materials i mean there's a lot of 748 00:28:37,190 --> 00:28:36,240 unanswered questions 749 00:28:40,389 --> 00:28:37,200 but 750 00:28:42,549 --> 00:28:40,399 we found this significant that that 751 00:28:44,310 --> 00:28:42,559 congressional committees 752 00:28:46,789 --> 00:28:44,320 were interested in the topic and we're 753 00:28:48,310 --> 00:28:46,799 given some information okay and as we 754 00:28:49,830 --> 00:28:48,320 said a lot of the information remains 755 00:28:51,750 --> 00:28:49,840 classified and we haven't been able to 756 00:28:53,510 --> 00:28:51,760 get it and even if we got it we probably 757 00:28:56,389 --> 00:28:53,520 wouldn't report it because we don't want 758 00:28:58,870 --> 00:28:56,399 to go to jail so um 759 00:29:01,909 --> 00:28:58,880 it's it's a it's a very interesting 760 00:29:04,950 --> 00:29:01,919 topic a shrouded in mystery 761 00:29:06,789 --> 00:29:04,960 and what we could report we did 762 00:29:09,190 --> 00:29:06,799 so um 763 00:29:12,149 --> 00:29:09,200 uh but you know nothing was edited out 764 00:29:13,909 --> 00:29:12,159 of our story we uh we agreed with our 765 00:29:15,830 --> 00:29:13,919 editors on what was 766 00:29:18,230 --> 00:29:15,840 uh worth reporting 767 00:29:20,870 --> 00:29:18,240 and uh we were happy with the way the 768 00:29:22,950 --> 00:29:20,880 stories came out 769 00:29:25,430 --> 00:29:22,960 ralph you're a man of integrity you're 770 00:29:26,710 --> 00:29:25,440 dealing facts you report on the facts 771 00:29:28,630 --> 00:29:26,720 but 772 00:29:31,190 --> 00:29:28,640 the human aspect of this for you do you 773 00:29:33,029 --> 00:29:31,200 have a gut feeling as to whether the us 774 00:29:36,870 --> 00:29:33,039 government does indeed have 775 00:29:39,029 --> 00:29:36,880 intact craft or pieces of a craft 776 00:29:40,950 --> 00:29:39,039 well there's a lot of smoke let's put it 777 00:29:41,909 --> 00:29:40,960 that way you know 778 00:29:43,909 --> 00:29:41,919 um 779 00:29:47,110 --> 00:29:43,919 there have been a lot of accounts 780 00:29:49,029 --> 00:29:47,120 um over the years and not verified as 781 00:29:52,149 --> 00:29:49,039 far as i know 782 00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:54,310 anecdotal accounts as john mack dealt 783 00:29:59,510 --> 00:29:56,240 with with the experiencers 784 00:30:01,110 --> 00:29:59,520 um so i don't know i mean uh i i know 785 00:30:04,070 --> 00:30:01,120 that there are 786 00:30:07,029 --> 00:30:04,080 super secret corners of uh of the 787 00:30:08,789 --> 00:30:07,039 military establishment that that 788 00:30:11,190 --> 00:30:08,799 we can't get access to 789 00:30:12,789 --> 00:30:11,200 um i mean that's just the way it is 790 00:30:16,149 --> 00:30:12,799 so um 791 00:30:17,110 --> 00:30:16,159 what what is uh you know in those 792 00:30:19,909 --> 00:30:17,120 um 793 00:30:25,510 --> 00:30:19,919 you know committees 794 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:25,520 it's a matter of speculation 795 00:30:27,190 --> 00:30:26,050 um 796 00:30:28,789 --> 00:30:27,200 [Music] 797 00:30:30,789 --> 00:30:28,799 but there's certainly been a lot of 798 00:30:31,270 --> 00:30:30,799 reporting over the years 799 00:30:32,470 --> 00:30:31,280 um 800 00:30:34,789 --> 00:30:32,480 [Music] 801 00:30:39,430 --> 00:30:37,110 alleging at least that that materials 802 00:30:41,669 --> 00:30:39,440 have been recovered as i said i can't go 803 00:30:44,789 --> 00:30:41,679 beyond that i i don't know i i can't 804 00:30:48,389 --> 00:30:44,799 confirm that from my reporting um 805 00:30:50,310 --> 00:30:48,399 so uh that remains to be seen 806 00:30:52,389 --> 00:30:50,320 when you see fellow journalists like 807 00:30:54,389 --> 00:30:52,399 ross coulthart getting so involved in 808 00:30:56,630 --> 00:30:54,399 the subject does that give you hope more 809 00:30:59,190 --> 00:30:56,640 will follow in the footsteps of yourself 810 00:31:01,190 --> 00:30:59,200 leslie kane and helene cooper yes when 811 00:31:02,470 --> 00:31:01,200 we see a serious journalist like tim 812 00:31:04,470 --> 00:31:02,480 mcmillan 813 00:31:06,630 --> 00:31:04,480 clearly um 814 00:31:08,149 --> 00:31:06,640 you know using their uh 815 00:31:09,590 --> 00:31:08,159 vast knowledge of the defense 816 00:31:12,549 --> 00:31:09,600 establishment 817 00:31:14,870 --> 00:31:12,559 uh to to look into this area uh it does 818 00:31:18,549 --> 00:31:14,880 give us hope that um 819 00:31:21,029 --> 00:31:18,559 look it is a communal exercise to to get 820 00:31:22,149 --> 00:31:21,039 this information out 821 00:31:24,149 --> 00:31:22,159 and 822 00:31:26,389 --> 00:31:24,159 as much as we compete you know with 823 00:31:29,029 --> 00:31:26,399 other journalists to be first 824 00:31:31,350 --> 00:31:29,039 i'm happy to see breakthroughs elsewhere 825 00:31:32,950 --> 00:31:31,360 that that move us onto 826 00:31:34,630 --> 00:31:32,960 you know a new track or give us 827 00:31:36,789 --> 00:31:34,640 additional information we don't own 828 00:31:39,509 --> 00:31:36,799 everything and we don't know everything 829 00:31:41,190 --> 00:31:39,519 we at the times let's say leslie and i 830 00:31:42,870 --> 00:31:41,200 uh people are working on a lot of 831 00:31:43,990 --> 00:31:42,880 interesting things and if they have a 832 00:31:45,830 --> 00:31:44,000 breakthrough 833 00:31:46,950 --> 00:31:45,840 george knapp certainly has wonderful 834 00:31:50,789 --> 00:31:46,960 sources 835 00:31:52,070 --> 00:31:50,799 um it does give me faith that um 836 00:31:53,990 --> 00:31:52,080 um 837 00:31:56,549 --> 00:31:54,000 you know we'll we'll be able to add to 838 00:31:59,669 --> 00:31:56,559 the the sum of human knowledge so 839 00:32:01,830 --> 00:31:59,679 i applaud them as i said what what does 840 00:32:03,029 --> 00:32:01,840 set me back a little bit is the 841 00:32:05,830 --> 00:32:03,039 the the 842 00:32:08,230 --> 00:32:05,840 the poor in misinformation let's say 843 00:32:11,029 --> 00:32:08,240 that's on the internet um 844 00:32:13,669 --> 00:32:11,039 that is not that doesn't um 845 00:32:16,070 --> 00:32:13,679 hue to the standards that we have in the 846 00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:16,080 mainstream media the serious media on 847 00:32:20,549 --> 00:32:18,960 this and that go by rumor and not 848 00:32:22,149 --> 00:32:20,559 checked out and 849 00:32:24,549 --> 00:32:22,159 you know a lot of stuff is out there and 850 00:32:26,310 --> 00:32:24,559 people take that 851 00:32:29,350 --> 00:32:26,320 as as as 852 00:32:31,430 --> 00:32:29,360 as reliable information and it it it may 853 00:32:33,830 --> 00:32:31,440 not be i mean you know 854 00:32:35,430 --> 00:32:33,840 uh not everybody has the same standards 855 00:32:37,590 --> 00:32:35,440 that we have at the washington post the 856 00:32:38,549 --> 00:32:37,600 new york times the wall street journal 857 00:32:41,590 --> 00:32:38,559 um 858 00:32:43,590 --> 00:32:41,600 so that that's the problem it's a mixed 859 00:32:47,909 --> 00:32:43,600 bag and you don't know often where this 860 00:32:51,190 --> 00:32:49,190 now let's go on to some listener 861 00:32:52,789 --> 00:32:51,200 questions ralph we had plenty sent in 862 00:32:54,950 --> 00:32:52,799 but obviously in a limited time i just 863 00:32:56,950 --> 00:32:54,960 want to get some of these to you um you 864 00:32:58,789 --> 00:32:56,960 touched on this a little bit earlier but 865 00:33:01,190 --> 00:32:58,799 i'd like to know a little bit more 866 00:33:03,830 --> 00:33:01,200 so dave wants to know at what point in 867 00:33:06,070 --> 00:33:03,840 the conversation ralph for you do you 868 00:33:09,029 --> 00:33:06,080 feel yourself pulling back when it comes 869 00:33:12,070 --> 00:33:09,039 to abduction and experiences i.e is it 870 00:33:14,389 --> 00:33:12,080 too far to discuss portals dimensionals 871 00:33:17,029 --> 00:33:14,399 or alien hybrid children for example at 872 00:33:18,870 --> 00:33:17,039 what point do you sort of pull away 873 00:33:21,590 --> 00:33:18,880 well i've discussed all that it's in my 874 00:33:22,470 --> 00:33:21,600 book uh it's in the debrief article i 875 00:33:28,389 --> 00:33:22,480 talk 876 00:33:30,389 --> 00:33:28,399 portals and seeing uh a mantis type 877 00:33:33,190 --> 00:33:30,399 creature crawling through the portal 878 00:33:35,750 --> 00:33:33,200 talking to him or having a telepathic 879 00:33:38,260 --> 00:33:35,760 conversation with him um 880 00:33:39,430 --> 00:33:38,270 so i record this 881 00:33:40,710 --> 00:33:39,440 [Music] 882 00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:40,720 in other words it's part of the 883 00:33:45,830 --> 00:33:43,600 reporting this is what people say 884 00:33:47,430 --> 00:33:45,840 happened i'm not shy about 885 00:33:50,070 --> 00:33:47,440 uh 886 00:33:52,470 --> 00:33:50,080 you know recording this information 887 00:33:53,990 --> 00:33:52,480 i'm not saying that i believe it 888 00:33:54,870 --> 00:33:54,000 um 889 00:33:56,630 --> 00:33:54,880 you know 890 00:33:59,750 --> 00:33:56,640 even to the extent that belief is a 891 00:34:01,029 --> 00:33:59,760 peculiar thing i mean we can get started 892 00:34:02,630 --> 00:34:01,039 you know what do you what do you believe 893 00:34:04,149 --> 00:34:02,640 people say do you believe in ufos and 894 00:34:06,630 --> 00:34:04,159 say well do you believe in the ocean do 895 00:34:07,590 --> 00:34:06,640 you believe in the stars ufos exist 896 00:34:10,710 --> 00:34:07,600 um 897 00:34:11,510 --> 00:34:10,720 uh so belief is a is a fraud question 898 00:34:13,669 --> 00:34:11,520 but 899 00:34:15,589 --> 00:34:13,679 i have dealt with all these issues as as 900 00:34:16,950 --> 00:34:15,599 bizarre as they are 901 00:34:19,589 --> 00:34:16,960 um 902 00:34:21,190 --> 00:34:19,599 i've at least reported that this is what 903 00:34:22,869 --> 00:34:21,200 people say 904 00:34:23,990 --> 00:34:22,879 happened to them 905 00:34:26,950 --> 00:34:24,000 um 906 00:34:29,109 --> 00:34:26,960 i can't go beyond that i can't verify it 907 00:34:31,510 --> 00:34:29,119 because it's not verifiable and they 908 00:34:32,310 --> 00:34:31,520 know that these people they know it 909 00:34:34,950 --> 00:34:32,320 so 910 00:34:37,430 --> 00:34:34,960 i i you know when you say do i pull back 911 00:34:40,389 --> 00:34:38,869 you know i it's not a question of 912 00:34:42,310 --> 00:34:40,399 pulling back it's a question of 913 00:34:46,069 --> 00:34:42,320 reporting what people say 914 00:34:48,550 --> 00:34:46,079 and and infusing it with the proper 915 00:34:50,629 --> 00:34:48,560 caveats which is to say as the debrief 916 00:34:51,990 --> 00:34:50,639 article said we can't prove this 917 00:34:55,430 --> 00:34:52,000 scientifically 918 00:34:58,069 --> 00:34:55,440 um this is what people say 919 00:34:59,750 --> 00:34:58,079 the the next question is from tim and 920 00:35:01,349 --> 00:34:59,760 i'll ask you ralph bear with me because 921 00:35:03,190 --> 00:35:01,359 there's a little bit of information and 922 00:35:05,990 --> 00:35:03,200 build up from tim before he gets to the 923 00:35:08,150 --> 00:35:06,000 question um there was an email from 924 00:35:11,270 --> 00:35:08,160 leslie keane to john podesta that was 925 00:35:13,750 --> 00:35:11,280 leaked in the 2016 dnc wikileaks dump 926 00:35:17,109 --> 00:35:13,760 addressing information provided to john 927 00:35:19,030 --> 00:35:17,119 via bob fish on hard data about fast 928 00:35:20,310 --> 00:35:19,040 walkers within the government and its 929 00:35:22,470 --> 00:35:20,320 contractors 930 00:35:24,630 --> 00:35:22,480 leslie's words were it's another 931 00:35:26,710 --> 00:35:24,640 confirmation of yet more documents kept 932 00:35:29,030 --> 00:35:26,720 from the public this knowledge belongs 933 00:35:31,030 --> 00:35:29,040 to the people under the law can we get 934 00:35:33,190 --> 00:35:31,040 the ball rolling during this transition 935 00:35:35,349 --> 00:35:33,200 window perhaps a quiet meeting with the 936 00:35:37,510 --> 00:35:35,359 right people before your next assignment 937 00:35:39,990 --> 00:35:37,520 i already have the perfect briefing 938 00:35:42,310 --> 00:35:40,000 package and the highly qualified staff 939 00:35:44,230 --> 00:35:42,320 are ready to go the timing seems ideal 940 00:35:47,190 --> 00:35:44,240 now that was leslie's comment the 941 00:35:49,990 --> 00:35:47,200 question from tim is has ralph seen this 942 00:35:52,069 --> 00:35:50,000 briefing package if so what was in it 943 00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:52,079 and was there ever a consideration to do 944 00:35:57,990 --> 00:35:54,320 a new york times story on bob fish and 945 00:36:00,390 --> 00:35:58,000 his claims to john podesta 946 00:36:02,790 --> 00:36:00,400 that's a complicated question well i 947 00:36:05,510 --> 00:36:02,800 have not seen that package i know leslie 948 00:36:06,870 --> 00:36:05,520 as a person of utmost integrity i'm 949 00:36:08,630 --> 00:36:06,880 sorry that 950 00:36:11,589 --> 00:36:08,640 these emails were leaked because they 951 00:36:15,109 --> 00:36:11,599 were done um i think it was part of a an 952 00:36:18,230 --> 00:36:15,119 effort to embarrass uh people um 953 00:36:20,470 --> 00:36:18,240 by the the the subject 954 00:36:23,750 --> 00:36:20,480 the nature of the subject anything with 955 00:36:27,750 --> 00:36:27,030 you know and a public figure has a 956 00:36:30,230 --> 00:36:27,760 uh 957 00:36:31,910 --> 00:36:30,240 likelihood of embarrassing them and 958 00:36:33,910 --> 00:36:31,920 people say things in emails that they 959 00:36:36,150 --> 00:36:33,920 wouldn't necessarily want to see public 960 00:36:38,390 --> 00:36:36,160 it's a sensitive topic so i don't know 961 00:36:40,390 --> 00:36:38,400 the whole back story of that exchange 962 00:36:42,870 --> 00:36:40,400 that leslie had with john podesta 963 00:36:45,910 --> 00:36:42,880 but um i think it was very sad that 964 00:36:47,910 --> 00:36:45,920 people used this as a way of 965 00:36:49,430 --> 00:36:47,920 trying to ridicule him or undermining 966 00:36:51,589 --> 00:36:49,440 him and there was a lot of private 967 00:36:52,829 --> 00:36:51,599 emails that were put out as part of 968 00:36:54,390 --> 00:36:52,839 you know 969 00:36:56,230 --> 00:36:54,400 machinations 970 00:36:57,990 --> 00:36:56,240 from different parties i'm not going to 971 00:36:58,870 --> 00:36:58,000 go into all that but we know what 972 00:37:01,670 --> 00:36:58,880 happened 973 00:37:05,589 --> 00:37:01,680 in the run-up to the 2016 election 974 00:37:06,950 --> 00:37:05,599 uh some very sordid stories uh emerged 975 00:37:09,349 --> 00:37:06,960 so um 976 00:37:10,950 --> 00:37:09,359 you know i i'm not just i'm not familiar 977 00:37:14,230 --> 00:37:10,960 enough with it with the background of 978 00:37:16,069 --> 00:37:14,240 that exchange to really comment on it 979 00:37:18,310 --> 00:37:16,079 no that that's fair 980 00:37:19,750 --> 00:37:18,320 michael has a good interesting question 981 00:37:21,829 --> 00:37:19,760 don't know how much you can go into this 982 00:37:23,990 --> 00:37:21,839 one to be fair though he wants to know 983 00:37:26,710 --> 00:37:24,000 have any of your top sources ever 984 00:37:29,510 --> 00:37:26,720 indicated that uap occupants have been 985 00:37:33,670 --> 00:37:30,390 no 986 00:37:35,109 --> 00:37:33,680 ever indicated that to me 987 00:37:36,870 --> 00:37:35,119 um 988 00:37:39,750 --> 00:37:36,880 and if they did i would like to say i 989 00:37:41,430 --> 00:37:39,760 would say let's see the film um 990 00:37:44,150 --> 00:37:41,440 you know i hear a lot of stories from 991 00:37:47,510 --> 00:37:44,160 people and i get sent a lot of material 992 00:37:48,790 --> 00:37:47,520 um and i welcome it um 993 00:37:51,109 --> 00:37:48,800 um 994 00:37:54,470 --> 00:37:51,119 you know i i but i always tell people i 995 00:37:57,030 --> 00:37:54,480 don't have the technical expertise to to 996 00:37:59,510 --> 00:37:57,040 vet a lot of the um 997 00:38:00,710 --> 00:37:59,520 uh videos that come to me uh you know 998 00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:00,720 i'm not a 999 00:38:05,589 --> 00:38:04,160 an expert in terms of uh 1000 00:38:07,589 --> 00:38:05,599 you know 1001 00:38:09,750 --> 00:38:07,599 unpacking the the information and 1002 00:38:12,470 --> 00:38:09,760 figuring out what's you know real what's 1003 00:38:15,030 --> 00:38:12,480 not real a lot of the the videos are not 1004 00:38:17,270 --> 00:38:15,040 very precise they're they're they're 1005 00:38:19,190 --> 00:38:17,280 um you know um 1006 00:38:21,430 --> 00:38:19,200 uh blurry 1007 00:38:25,030 --> 00:38:21,440 which has been the problem all along 1008 00:38:26,710 --> 00:38:25,040 so uh but uh i can't say i've ever had 1009 00:38:29,109 --> 00:38:26,720 an account that oh somebody has a 1010 00:38:31,750 --> 00:38:29,119 picture of an alien uh or a video of an 1011 00:38:33,910 --> 00:38:31,760 alien that they're willing to to share 1012 00:38:35,829 --> 00:38:33,920 i'd look in anything but 1013 00:38:37,910 --> 00:38:35,839 it's very hard to verify and you know 1014 00:38:40,069 --> 00:38:37,920 that famous tape of the the alien 1015 00:38:41,829 --> 00:38:40,079 autopsy has been subject to a lot of 1016 00:38:43,109 --> 00:38:41,839 controversy so 1017 00:38:45,750 --> 00:38:43,119 yeah 1018 00:38:48,310 --> 00:38:45,760 no that's that's fair uh next up carl 1019 00:38:51,589 --> 00:38:48,320 wants to know uh he is curious ralph if 1020 00:38:53,670 --> 00:38:51,599 john max notes ever mentioned the cia or 1021 00:38:55,349 --> 00:38:53,680 the stanford research institute and 1022 00:38:58,630 --> 00:38:55,359 remote viewing 1023 00:39:02,069 --> 00:38:58,640 good question um the answer the simple 1024 00:39:03,910 --> 00:39:02,079 answer is no uh john mack was asked a 1025 00:39:05,670 --> 00:39:03,920 number of times whether the government 1026 00:39:07,270 --> 00:39:05,680 ever tried to interfere with him and 1027 00:39:08,870 --> 00:39:07,280 this is interesting because of the 1028 00:39:10,950 --> 00:39:08,880 government's history 1029 00:39:14,630 --> 00:39:10,960 of disinformation in this field they 1030 00:39:16,550 --> 00:39:14,640 have messed with some people as we know 1031 00:39:18,950 --> 00:39:16,560 according to john mack himself they did 1032 00:39:21,190 --> 00:39:18,960 not mess with him and he would have been 1033 00:39:24,150 --> 00:39:21,200 you would think a perfect person to mess 1034 00:39:26,550 --> 00:39:24,160 with if the government was out to 1035 00:39:27,510 --> 00:39:26,560 discredit somebody 1036 00:39:30,630 --> 00:39:27,520 and now 1037 00:39:33,510 --> 00:39:30,640 i have not caught him in any lies 1038 00:39:35,670 --> 00:39:33,520 and i i would take him at his word 1039 00:39:39,430 --> 00:39:35,680 um i would not conclude that the 1040 00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:39,440 government did try to you know 1041 00:39:43,829 --> 00:39:41,760 mess with him but he but he's hiding it 1042 00:39:45,190 --> 00:39:43,839 i i that would not be 1043 00:39:47,030 --> 00:39:45,200 uh 1044 00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:47,040 congruent that would not be 1045 00:39:49,829 --> 00:39:48,240 consistent 1046 00:39:51,349 --> 00:39:49,839 with everything else i found in his 1047 00:39:54,069 --> 00:39:51,359 papers when he 1048 00:39:55,030 --> 00:39:54,079 encountered a problem he owned up to it 1049 00:39:57,270 --> 00:39:55,040 um 1050 00:39:58,470 --> 00:39:57,280 and he wasn't shy about uh you know 1051 00:40:01,030 --> 00:39:58,480 talking about 1052 00:40:03,190 --> 00:40:01,040 what you know people did and said to him 1053 00:40:05,510 --> 00:40:03,200 so uh but he did make a point of saying 1054 00:40:07,670 --> 00:40:05,520 the government never reached out to him 1055 00:40:09,910 --> 00:40:07,680 he was never the subject of any 1056 00:40:13,109 --> 00:40:09,920 government effort to 1057 00:40:15,109 --> 00:40:13,119 shut him up or to mislead him or to feed 1058 00:40:16,790 --> 00:40:15,119 him false information so that's 1059 00:40:18,150 --> 00:40:16,800 interesting 1060 00:40:20,309 --> 00:40:18,160 so the answer 1061 00:40:23,750 --> 00:40:20,319 i'm happy to say in this case i can be 1062 00:40:25,910 --> 00:40:23,760 pretty definitive is no 1063 00:40:28,069 --> 00:40:25,920 that's fair enough and last question is 1064 00:40:30,630 --> 00:40:28,079 from nathan um i don't know if you've 1065 00:40:33,270 --> 00:40:30,640 read brian bender's piece in politico 1066 00:40:35,589 --> 00:40:33,280 recently he quotes reuben uh is it 1067 00:40:38,069 --> 00:40:35,599 gallego gallagher i'm not too familiar 1068 00:40:40,230 --> 00:40:38,079 on the pronunciation of the sun name uh 1069 00:40:42,150 --> 00:40:40,240 as saying that a hearing without a real 1070 00:40:44,950 --> 00:40:42,160 understanding of what's happening 1071 00:40:47,589 --> 00:40:44,960 without real data is not going to do 1072 00:40:49,430 --> 00:40:47,599 anybody any good is it fair to say that 1073 00:40:51,510 --> 00:40:49,440 lawmakers really 1074 00:40:54,150 --> 00:40:51,520 don't have decent information to push 1075 00:40:56,069 --> 00:40:54,160 for these congressional hearings and in 1076 00:40:58,390 --> 00:40:56,079 addition to that are there enough people 1077 00:41:00,550 --> 00:40:58,400 who have already briefed certain members 1078 00:41:03,030 --> 00:41:00,560 that when given the chance to speak on 1079 00:41:06,150 --> 00:41:03,040 record without fear of their nda more 1080 00:41:08,309 --> 00:41:06,160 info would be made readily available 1081 00:41:10,710 --> 00:41:08,319 well i know brian bender and he's a he's 1082 00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:10,720 a meticulous and reliable journalist on 1083 00:41:16,069 --> 00:41:14,160 politico i didn't read that last article 1084 00:41:19,430 --> 00:41:16,079 there have been congressional hearings 1085 00:41:24,230 --> 00:41:23,030 as recently as the 2000s uh dealing with 1086 00:41:26,550 --> 00:41:24,240 roswell 1087 00:41:29,349 --> 00:41:26,560 uh dealing with um 1088 00:41:30,870 --> 00:41:29,359 gerald ford called hearings when he was 1089 00:41:45,589 --> 00:41:30,880 a 1090 00:41:48,790 --> 00:41:45,599 um 1091 00:41:50,470 --> 00:41:48,800 how it might change the the paradigm uh 1092 00:41:52,870 --> 00:41:50,480 you know what it might say 1093 00:41:54,470 --> 00:41:52,880 uh i i hope that the 1094 00:41:57,990 --> 00:41:54,480 i mean we know that there was a secret 1095 00:42:01,270 --> 00:41:58,000 annex a a a classified annex 1096 00:42:02,710 --> 00:42:01,280 to the uap report of june 25th 1097 00:42:03,750 --> 00:42:02,720 that was given to congressional 1098 00:42:05,349 --> 00:42:03,760 committees 1099 00:42:08,069 --> 00:42:05,359 i don't know whether that will ever see 1100 00:42:10,470 --> 00:42:09,430 as far as i know 1101 00:42:12,230 --> 00:42:10,480 no 1102 00:42:13,829 --> 00:42:12,240 members of congress have talked about 1103 00:42:18,069 --> 00:42:13,839 that they're not supposed to talk about 1104 00:42:21,030 --> 00:42:18,079 it that's why it's it's classified um 1105 00:42:23,430 --> 00:42:21,040 so i don't know what's in that um 1106 00:42:24,870 --> 00:42:23,440 but um i don't know whether hearings at 1107 00:42:28,150 --> 00:42:24,880 this point would 1108 00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:28,160 uh you know hearings are usually held to 1109 00:42:31,910 --> 00:42:30,960 investigate like the the january 6th 1110 00:42:36,230 --> 00:42:31,920 riot 1111 00:42:37,109 --> 00:42:36,240 um you know uh uh malfeasance or 1112 00:42:39,349 --> 00:42:37,119 uh 1113 00:42:42,069 --> 00:42:39,359 or the the 911 1114 00:42:43,910 --> 00:42:42,079 tragedy obviously 911 commission 1115 00:42:45,109 --> 00:42:43,920 um so that you have a congressional 1116 00:42:47,030 --> 00:42:45,119 hearing when you want to bring something 1117 00:42:48,870 --> 00:42:47,040 to light i don't know whether this 1118 00:42:49,990 --> 00:42:48,880 evolving 1119 00:42:52,309 --> 00:42:50,000 um 1120 00:42:54,710 --> 00:42:52,319 investigation of the pentagon is is the 1121 00:42:57,670 --> 00:42:54,720 kind of thing that would lend itself to 1122 00:42:59,750 --> 00:42:57,680 congressional hearings at this point 1123 00:43:01,910 --> 00:42:59,760 maybe after the next step when we know a 1124 00:43:03,190 --> 00:43:01,920 little more 1125 00:43:04,550 --> 00:43:03,200 i think there are people in the 1126 00:43:06,710 --> 00:43:04,560 government who do want to get more 1127 00:43:08,470 --> 00:43:06,720 information out 1128 00:43:10,150 --> 00:43:08,480 the media is certainly sensitive to it 1129 00:43:13,270 --> 00:43:10,160 there was a lot of 1130 00:43:15,349 --> 00:43:13,280 build up to the january 25th um 1131 00:43:18,550 --> 00:43:15,359 the june 25th report 1132 00:43:22,150 --> 00:43:18,560 um you know a great appetite for that i 1133 00:43:23,829 --> 00:43:22,160 think it kind of fell with a thought 1134 00:43:25,829 --> 00:43:23,839 it didn't answer all the questions that 1135 00:43:26,790 --> 00:43:25,839 people had but the questions are still 1136 00:43:28,870 --> 00:43:26,800 there 1137 00:43:31,589 --> 00:43:28,880 so maybe at some point it would be 1138 00:43:33,990 --> 00:43:31,599 useful but i i'm not sure i 1139 00:43:36,790 --> 00:43:34,000 i would say i would clamor now to we've 1140 00:43:38,470 --> 00:43:36,800 got to have congressional hearings 1141 00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:38,480 ralph it's always a pleasure speaking to 1142 00:43:42,390 --> 00:43:40,560 you i would ask you what's next for you 1143 00:43:43,750 --> 00:43:42,400 what you're working on just now and then 1144 00:43:45,750 --> 00:43:43,760 just let listeners know how they can 1145 00:43:47,670 --> 00:43:45,760 follow you and your work of course 1146 00:43:49,510 --> 00:43:47,680 well i'm very involved with publicizing 1147 00:43:53,109 --> 00:43:49,520 my book i'm doing a lot of shows like 1148 00:43:54,390 --> 00:43:53,119 this uh talking about it i think um 1149 00:43:57,270 --> 00:43:54,400 there's still a lot of questions out 1150 00:43:59,140 --> 00:43:57,280 there obviously the experiencer thing uh 1151 00:44:01,109 --> 00:43:59,150 is an un um 1152 00:44:02,710 --> 00:44:01,119 [Music] 1153 00:44:04,630 --> 00:44:02,720 well it's it's still 1154 00:44:06,550 --> 00:44:04,640 worthy of a lot of examination these 1155 00:44:09,510 --> 00:44:06,560 people are out there they've got stories 1156 00:44:12,790 --> 00:44:09,520 to tell there's a lot of scientific 1157 00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:12,800 investigation that should be done 1158 00:44:17,190 --> 00:44:14,880 and also we still don't know anything 1159 00:44:18,870 --> 00:44:17,200 about the we know that the you know ufos 1160 00:44:20,470 --> 00:44:18,880 exist according to the pentagon but we 1161 00:44:22,790 --> 00:44:20,480 don't know anything else about them how 1162 00:44:24,309 --> 00:44:22,800 do they operate underwater 1163 00:44:25,829 --> 00:44:24,319 a good question 1164 00:44:28,390 --> 00:44:25,839 um 1165 00:44:30,390 --> 00:44:28,400 you know and uh have they been spotted 1166 00:44:32,710 --> 00:44:30,400 coming into the atmosphere at all what 1167 00:44:35,430 --> 00:44:32,720 do you know what do the satellites show 1168 00:44:37,109 --> 00:44:35,440 i mean you know a lot of 1169 00:44:39,030 --> 00:44:37,119 interesting questions 1170 00:44:40,790 --> 00:44:39,040 so i haven't given up this field but i'm 1171 00:44:44,309 --> 00:44:40,800 doing other things too i was recently on 1172 00:44:45,670 --> 00:44:44,319 a panel talking about 1173 00:44:48,630 --> 00:44:45,680 president roosevelt's packing of the 1174 00:44:50,710 --> 00:44:48,640 supreme court so i have uh historical 1175 00:44:53,510 --> 00:44:50,720 interests apart from 1176 00:44:55,109 --> 00:44:53,520 ufos i i work in the baruch archives 1177 00:44:56,950 --> 00:44:55,119 where we have a lot of 1178 00:44:58,870 --> 00:44:56,960 interesting historical materials on 1179 00:45:00,710 --> 00:44:58,880 reform government and the roosevelt 1180 00:45:01,589 --> 00:45:00,720 administration and 1181 00:45:03,349 --> 00:45:01,599 um 1182 00:45:05,589 --> 00:45:03,359 you know a guy named luther gulick who 1183 00:45:08,390 --> 00:45:05,599 was very involved in reshaping 1184 00:45:10,390 --> 00:45:08,400 government and public administration so 1185 00:45:12,630 --> 00:45:10,400 i have a lot of interests so 1186 00:45:15,190 --> 00:45:12,640 we'll see every book i've done sort of 1187 00:45:16,630 --> 00:45:15,200 dropped into my lap in a strange way so 1188 00:45:18,150 --> 00:45:16,640 maybe something 1189 00:45:20,150 --> 00:45:18,160 i'm not even thinking about will come 1190 00:45:22,069 --> 00:45:20,160 along 1191 00:45:23,670 --> 00:45:22,079 well ralph on behalf of myself and the 1192 00:45:26,150 --> 00:45:23,680 community thank you very much for the 1193 00:45:27,750 --> 00:45:26,160 work you've done and continue to do and 1194 00:45:30,309 --> 00:45:27,760 i would encourage people to go out and 1195 00:45:32,710 --> 00:45:30,319 pick up your copy of the believer alien 1196 00:45:35,030 --> 00:45:32,720 encounters hard science and the passion 1197 00:45:37,190 --> 00:45:35,040 of john mack by ralph blumenthal ralph 1198 00:45:39,430 --> 00:45:37,200 always a pleasure to speak to you 1199 00:45:41,670 --> 00:45:39,440 likewise thank you great to be here good 1200 00:45:43,910 --> 00:45:41,680 night that is all for this week's show 1201 00:45:45,430 --> 00:45:43,920 thank you very much for listening please 1202 00:45:48,069 --> 00:45:45,440 remember to leave the podcast podcaster 1203 00:45:50,550 --> 00:45:48,079 review on your chosen platform you can 1204 00:45:52,710 --> 00:45:50,560 like retweet and subscribe that would 1205 00:45:54,630 --> 00:45:52,720 all be very much appreciated the shows 1206 00:45:56,470 --> 00:45:54,640 are being uploaded onto youtube as we 1207 00:45:58,950 --> 00:45:56,480 speak more and more you can sign up at 1208 00:46:01,670 --> 00:45:58,960 patreon.com forward slash that ufo 1209 00:46:03,910 --> 00:46:01,680 podcast to access shows ad free as well 1210 00:46:06,710 --> 00:46:03,920 please get in touch on twitter facebook 1211 00:46:09,910 --> 00:46:06,720 instagram that ufo podcast of course on 1212 00:46:11,990 --> 00:46:09,920 twitter it's at ufouapam 1213 00:46:15,140 --> 00:46:12,000 and again folks as always keep looking 1214 00:46:35,510 --> 00:46:15,150 up you never know what you might see 1215 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:42,190 is 1216 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:51,109 [Music] 1217 00:47:22,470 --> 00:46:52,630 i can't imagine how it could have been 1218 00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:30,500 is 1219 00:48:09,510 --> 00:47:41,720 [Music] 1220 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:09,520 i wasn't a tic-tac and not quite a 1221 00:48:22,549 --> 00:48:20,710 [Music] 1222 00:48:29,410 --> 00:48:22,559 it wasn't a tic tac and not quite a 1223 00:48:29,420 --> 00:48:43,270 [Music] 1224 00:48:54,790 --> 00:48:45,380 it's very clear 1225 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:59,130 so